WOW: Accesiability and Apathy

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WOW: Accesiability and Apathy

Postby RichardRahl » Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:04 am

http://youtu.be/GFWh9aY4pas

Very interesting video by Preach.

What are your thoughts on this?
He does not offer solutions in the video.
What solutions would you suggest?
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Re: WOW: Accesiability and Apathy

Postby Wrecx » Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:45 pm

Saw this yesterday, watched the follow up video today. What he did and what he has to say about it isn't wrong in its accuracy, it should be fixed somehow.... But as for the community stepping up to do something about it in game.... Well that's a tough one. No matter how you approach it you come off looking like a jerk. No matter how kindly you try to approach it. If you offer suggestions on how to play better you're a jerk, if you say something in lfr you're a jerk, if you basically interact in any way other than ignoring it how do you come off as not a jerk? It's a strange enviroment when socially the smart thing to do to avoid argument is to not interact with other players in an MMO.
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Re: WOW: Accesiability and Apathy

Postby RichardRahl » Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:57 pm

Yea i believe any "solution" to fix this would have to be a system implemented by blizzard. Asking the comunity to put there necks out just to get there heads bitten off buy those they are trying to help is not a good idea in my opinion.
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Re: WOW: Accesiability and Apathy

Postby Seth » Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:11 pm

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Last edited by Seth on Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WOW: Accesiability and Apathy

Postby Phatal » Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:30 pm

I agree with seth. I like the concept of having something to strive for. Now we do of course have heroic modes and achievements and i like those improvements as well as many others they have added since vanilla. I also think that lfr has been a great way to allow many players to raid and see content. I think and hope that flex will improve upon lfr in that it will reduce the bad attitudes that you encounter in lfr. I also think flex will help to reduce the rediculous queue times that dps players experience.

I agree also that players who complete the hardest content in the game should be granted special rewards - i.e. unique gear/mounts/titles. Of the usual rewards, gear -especially the aesthetic of gear - is the most easily noticed by other players. It feels good to have someone whisper you in stormwind and say "awesome gear". It's nice to have your hardwork recognized easily without them having toinspect you closely.

This concept applies to many aspects of the game: pvp, pve, pet battles, even AH players. Wouldnt it be cool if you were given a special helm or cloak or weapon for being awesome at pet battles? Of course it would! Because if you are serious about pet battles you care about it and you have worked hard to do so well. You should be recognized for your hard work.

My point here is just that it is ok to give players who work hard special and unique rewards. It does not degrade any players who choose not to spend their time doing heroics or challenge modes or high end arena or pet battles, it simply rewards players who dedicate a lot of effort to conquering some of the hardest content in the game - of which the choices are many. I like achievements and titles and all that but i could do without all of it if they would just let me look distinct again. I dont want to the look the same as every other player who has lfr tier gear.

As for lfr. I just wish there was a way to hold players accountable for their attitudes. It used to be that if you were an ass you would be known on the server for being one. This would keep people in check via social pressure. I am ok with players learning or who are new or just need practice. I am even ok with people who have to afk frequently due to rl. This is what lfr is for - people who want to raid but cannot commit to a schedule. I am not ok with people who are abusive, rude, racist, ignorant or those who troll, flame and spam just for the hell of it. There has to be a way to hold these bad apples accountable because they ruin it for the majority of players.
Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
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Re: WOW: Accesiability and Apathy

Postby Swipeusilly » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:22 pm

I truly wish I had read this post when it was current, because it is a debate I would love to be involved in. My firm belief is that there needs to be action taken both among the communities and by blizzard to create some separation between raiders and casual players. While I think it is nice that LFR gives casuals the ability to see the content while it is current, it has succeeded in nothing more than stunting the actual raiding community.
To clarify, gear is too easily achieved by everyone. Raiders and casuals alike seem to run LFR to obtain gear, whether it be for their permanent gear set, or for fill in pieces. Thus giving everyone a similar ilvl in the short term. This has allowed for casual players with little to no skill to slip through the cracks and get into normal mode raiding, ultimately watering down the raiding community, and making the casuals targets for ridicule.
Everyones hang up on ilvl, something I have seen more and more with the introduction of FLEX raids has become silly and trivial. Granted there was a time when ilvl meant something. It took dedication and skill to obtain epic level gear, which now only takes the gift of gab to obtain. If a player is able to talk themselves into a raid group, even for a raid or two, they will get the normal mode gear, mainly because they looked better on paper due to LFR or Flex gear, while putting in no effort, or research into their character class, or the fights.
Now, on to the "Legendary Cloak". What is so legendary about it? In past expansions the legendary was actually quite a feat to obtain, but this xpac, our legendary is so easily obtainable, that nearly every player with a little patience for LFR can easily obtain it. (and on multiple toons I might add). I find this fairly ridiculous. Cmon Blizz give us a challenge on something again.
Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with being a casual player, but for those that strive for excellence in raiding, or even PVP, there is no longer anything that identifies them, other than the occasional title, or mount that everyone else will have soon enough when guilds start selling runs or running GDKP raids.
Not only has it watered down the separation of elite players from casuals, but ultimately hurt the social aspect that made this game such a wonderful thing. People rarely seem to help one another anymore. Over the years I have had countless people whom I sat in a VOIP with and helped them learn a character class to better their gameplay. Something I rarely see anymore. I now see a lot more ridicule of the casual players who are trying to step up, rather than an helpful environment.
I firmly believe that while Blizz created the content which has allowed this, and that they need to fix on some level, it is up to us as players to take some more control and become a community again. Helping each other out to strive for success has always been one of my favorite parts of this game, and maybe its time for that sense of community to come out in force. If everyone becomes better players and starts complaining to blizz how easy the game is to us, maybe they will start creating content for us that is more challenging ultimately creating a separation of the elite, raiding and casual communities again.

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Re: WOW: Accesiability and Apathy

Postby Torage » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:16 pm

The fix to this i think is a lot less complex than you might think and is in fact quite an old solution.

Lets look back at the old Killer Instinct for the SNES, if you go into the options you can set the difficulty between 1 and 5 stars, However! If you set the game to one star the challenger list is missing Idol, the final boss opponent. Imagine that you are running LFR SoO and on the final wing you beat the Paragons of the klaxxi and you are done, perhaps even Garrosh shows up and tells you that you are unworthy and slams the door the the final chamber, If you go up and click on the door to open it you get a message congratulating you for completing LFR and tells you that you must venture into Flex mode to defeat Garrosh and end his reign of terror.

This seems like an all around win, you can still get geared for flex by defeating the other 13 bosses. It also gives people a cliff hanger and some strong incentive to find a group and do flex mode. I think this will fix where a lot of players get derailed making that jump from nameless faceless people in their raid, to actually playing with people they have willingly grouped with. I really think this would get people back on track because if you can finish Garrosh on flex, you can easily start on normal, and if you can finish normal, you can easily start on heroic.
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Re: WOW: Accesiability and Apathy

Postby Torage » Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:02 pm

Swipeusilly wrote:I truly wish I had read this post when it was current, because it is a debate I would love to be involved in. My firm belief is that there needs to be action taken both among the communities and by blizzard to create some separation between raiders and casual players. While I think it is nice that LFR gives casuals the ability to see the content while it is current, it has succeeded in nothing more than stunting the actual raiding community.
To clarify, gear is too easily achieved by everyone. Raiders and casuals alike seem to run LFR to obtain gear, whether it be for their permanent gear set, or for fill in pieces. Thus giving everyone a similar ilvl in the short term. This has allowed for casual players with little to no skill to slip through the cracks and get into normal mode raiding, ultimately watering down the raiding community, and making the casuals targets for ridicule.
Everyones hang up on ilvl, something I have seen more and more with the introduction of FLEX raids has become silly and trivial. Granted there was a time when ilvl meant something. It took dedication and skill to obtain epic level gear, which now only takes the gift of gab to obtain. If a player is able to talk themselves into a raid group, even for a raid or two, they will get the normal mode gear, mainly because they looked better on paper due to LFR or Flex gear, while putting in no effort, or research into their character class, or the fights.
Now, on to the "Legendary Cloak". What is so legendary about it? In past expansions the legendary was actually quite a feat to obtain, but this xpac, our legendary is so easily obtainable, that nearly every player with a little patience for LFR can easily obtain it. (and on multiple toons I might add). I find this fairly ridiculous. Cmon Blizz give us a challenge on something again.
Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with being a casual player, but for those that strive for excellence in raiding, or even PVP, there is no longer anything that identifies them, other than the occasional title, or mount that everyone else will have soon enough when guilds start selling runs or running GDKP raids.
Not only has it watered down the separation of elite players from casuals, but ultimately hurt the social aspect that made this game such a wonderful thing. People rarely seem to help one another anymore. Over the years I have had countless people whom I sat in a VOIP with and helped them learn a character class to better their gameplay. Something I rarely see anymore. I now see a lot more ridicule of the casual players who are trying to step up, rather than an helpful environment.
I firmly believe that while Blizz created the content which has allowed this, and that they need to fix on some level, it is up to us as players to take some more control and become a community again. Helping each other out to strive for success has always been one of my favorite parts of this game, and maybe its time for that sense of community to come out in force. If everyone becomes better players and starts complaining to blizz how easy the game is to us, maybe they will start creating content for us that is more challenging ultimately creating a separation of the elite, raiding and casual communities again.

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I am sorry to point this out but I think you have basically everything about this topic totally wrong.

You talk about blizzard needing to create a separation between raiders and casual players. I think you missed the whole point here, it's not about quarantining the casuals but providing them a means of progression past their current level of play. The whole point was that they finish LFR and think they have seen all the game has to offer and they haven't even started.

You said that letting casuals see the content through LFR is doing nothing but stunting the actual raiding community, although I can see your point here you seem to be more concerned with making a clear gap between LFR raiders and non LFR rather than making the transition between the two part of the clear progression path of a player.

You also talked about casual players "slipping through the cracks" into normal modes like it is a bad thing. This is EXACTLY what they should be trying to achieve. It's that step out of LFR and into a real raid that will show someone the true depth of the game. Even if they are ridiculed for not playing as well (I hope none of you do this to new players but it happens) they will see what WoW really has to offer. Lots of the players who just run LFR probably don't even know they are doing it wrong or that it actually matters, because in LFR it doesn't.

It seems like what you are looking for is a separation between casual and hardcore players for the sake of being in the cool kids club. I don't think this is at all what preach was getting at or what blizzard wants for their game. What he was talking about was the false sense of completion LFR gives you when you have in fact barely (or not at all) scratched the surface of the game.
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Re: WOW: Accesiability and Apathy

Postby Swipeusilly » Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:05 am

I agree with you that LFR raiders are doing what they are supposed to, but stepping up, however I think you are missing MY point there. The way things are currently set up and the hang up on ilvl, players are brought into raid groups because of ilvl and not their skill. Why should skilled players be subjected to raiding with individuals who are just plain bad because ilvl makes them look like they belong there. I have no issue with players who put in effort to better their gameplay getting into raids, its when I see a "Raid Team" that has individuals who obviously put in no time and effort to learning their class, spec or anything about the raid.
So now said individual gets into one group, and although they are bad, they get a couple pieces of gear, and still do nothing to learn to play, and move onto another, because now they look a bit better than before because of ilvl. Everyones need to have ilvl has trumped skill anymore. You talk about the cool kids club. Well, non raiders that think they require epic level gear to sit and play the auction house and look cool while they troll trade chat, seems a lot more of trying to get into a cool kids club, not those that actually can play the content.
I don't blame anyone for this other than blizz and the almighty dollar. There was a time in this game that even the most epic players didn't have a full set of purple gear, because it was difficult to obtain. Skill and dedication were required to achieve certain feats in the game, much like any other achievement.
They have made it so that those that strive to excel have no rewards for doing so, they can just go get carried on their way to the same content as those that work hard are getting to see. Honestly I think its foolish to think that people are entitled to the content. Should an individual that puts all of their time into raiding and learning their role be entitled to max gold just like the guy who spends all his time playing the AH? Or how about all the loremaster achieves because they didn't have time to do it because they were busy grinding for gear and practicing on a target dummy? Maybe the Gladiator title for putting no work into learning to play PVP. It makes about as much sense.
There should be some separation, when I started raiding Blizz didn't come out and make it all easy, I had to play in crap gear and let my skill do the talking. Learning by talking to others and getting better, not by the trickery of ilvl. If a player doesn't have the skill to attain certain content they shouldn't get to do it plain and simply.
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